jibu swali hili

Debate Swali

Why are unborn babies not considered equal?

Dead serious. Someone explain to me how wewe can actually believe it's okay to kill babies before birth.
 LGYCE posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
next question »

Debate Majibu

Cinders said:
First, I understand wewe are passionate about this issue. It very much saddens wewe to think of abortion and all of that potential snuffed out at a perceived whim.

So let me first assure wewe that these are not decisions made on whims. They are not decisions made without thinking about the potential of the fetus, nor are they decisions made out of context. On the other hand, creating a sweeping, no-exceptions law outlawing abortion entirely would be a decision made in every case without regards to context au extenuating circumstances.

Beyond that, I am not sure what your swali is asking. Do wewe want, for example, a philosophical conversation on where life begins? I feel regardless of what I say, you'll stick to your guns that life begins at conception. OK.

So instead of launching into a philosophical essay that won't help wewe at all, why don't I ask wewe a swali instead.

Why do wewe believe abortions happen in the first place, and what would wewe suggest as an alternative for women and their partners who wish to have one?
select as best answer
posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita 
*
I don't want a no-exceptions law. I think Ireland has it right, abortion can be legal if the life of the mother truly depends on it. But, even if the mother cannot support the child, there's always adoption. As for your question, I believe abortion happens because people don't think it's wrong. I understand that many women have financial problems au it isn't the right time au those issues, which they have reason to care about. But they wouldn't murder their mothers even if that made their situation easier. They wouldn't even kill a bila mpangilio hobo they knew nothing about, because even if it somehow made their lives better, they understand that it is wrong. If people believed abortion was as wrong as it is, they would not abort, even if a baby would greatly disadvantage them. But it is wrong, at least in America. It goes against the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed kwa their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." kwa definition, create means to bring (something) into existence. Thus, unless fetuses have not actually begun existing, they now possess the same unalienable right to Life as all others in America. What I was trying to ask was why abortion is still legal despite this, and I do truly want to know how others see that.
LGYCE posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
*
Thanks for your rational answer to my first question, I appreciate it. Allow me to counter your quote with one from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a document ratified kwa the USA among many other nations. makala one: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights." wewe can tell how they took this directly from the Declaration. In this instance, the word "created" was changed/reinterpreted to "born" because "created" had religious connatations they did not want in a universal document meant to represent a variety of faiths and creeds. Now, I could sit here and quibble semantics with you, but the fact of the matter is that the word "created" is up for interpretation. A fetus exists, yes, but does an independent person exist? A human being that can exist seperately from any other organism, that can eat, breathe, and sleep as is our scientific definition of life? wewe see where this gets tricky. I don't want to get into the messy waters of where life begins. But I do want to address your swali now. For clarity's sake, I will do so in a follow-up maoni because I can't do paragraphs here. Hang on.
Cinders posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
*
Your understanding of why women abort is not entirely off-base. But to say it's just to make their life "easier" I feel is to make light of the dire situations many of these women find themselves in. It's not about convenience, it's about survival, and wewe better believe that anyone would "kill" to use your term if it was a matter of survival. Why is about survival? Because many of these women have no other options left. A child could directly au indirectly mean their undoing, even death. For one thing, there are practically no programs available for new mothers in need to turn to, and any programs that exist are under scrutiny kwa the very same people who argue for a child's right to be born. I once alisema in my makala on this subject ("Why Women Abort") that to be truly pro-life, one must first support social programs that help desperate new mothers to support and raise a healthy, happy child. Unfortunately, many in the political arena in this issue argue for stricter abortion laws while at the same time arguing to cut funding to chakula stamps, welfare, public health care and education, the exact services that new mothers need the most. As wewe seem like a rational individual, I would presume that wewe support these programs as well, because to care for an unborn fetus logically leads to caring for the child that fetus could become, and taking care of that child. If it's society's responsibility to ensure that all fetuses have the right to be born, then surely it is society's responsibility to care for the children that have already been born. Abortion is legal today because 1) Personhood has been legally defined to start at birth, because that's when a baby can survive on its own. And 2) Because, frankly, it's safer and smarter. If we've learned nothing else from the drug war, we've at least learned that outlawing something doesn't give wewe control over it, but rather it means wewe are giving UP your control of it. kwa keeping them legal, we can ensure that they are safe, and give women as much support and as many options as they need, including pre- and post-procedure counseling to ensure that this is the only choice she has. Women and their partners (if present) agonize over this decision, and there are laws in place already that restrict abortion (no third trimester procedures, for example). But if wewe want to decrease the rates of abortion in this country, don't try and make the restrictions harsher. Instead, invest in its infrastructure. It may alarm wewe to know that the United States has one of the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country (yes, I alisema "developed). That is appalling. When I worked in public schools, I knew kids who would only come to school because it provided for free their only meal of the day. Think if wewe were a poor and unexpectedly expectant mother looking at what children in poverty face. Make that image better, and maybe you'll convince her that she does have another option. That's my suggestion, anyway.
Cinders posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
*
I support alisema programs as much as a minor can, and I will act on my words once I have an income. I personally very strongly believe that society does have a responsibility both to ensure birth of all for whom it is possible, and support and care for any of those who's situation is dangerous. I realize this is not a very realistic goal, which saddens me, but it is my goal nonetheless. I thank wewe for your answer, and while I still don't necessarily agree with abortion, I have no hatred for any who perform such out of necessity, au even percieved necessity. My desire is to eliminate such necessity, and once accomplished, illegalize the process that could then only be performed out of spite au convenience.
LGYCE posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
whiteflame55 said:
The simple answer is this:

Because no matter the point we pick for the start of human life, we will be making a determination based on our arbitrary set of values. I imagine that wewe would set a zygote equal to an adult human in terms of value. That's entirely up to you, and it's neither my place, nor will it be my effort, to change your mind. My view is arbitrary too.

The problem is that even saying that a zygote is the beginning of a human being is to ignore all the steps that came before, and treat them as subhuman. Perhaps that's warranted, but it's based off of a set of characteristics that wewe feel make a human being a human being, ones that not everyone will share.

So, my answer is that the unborn aren't considered equal to born into the world alive babies kwa many on the basis of arbitrary criteria for what is a human being. Everyone employs arbitrary criteria, the only difference is the point at which that criteria applies. Yours applies earlier than mine, ergo wewe view the unborn differently than I do, and therefore place different value upon them.
select as best answer
posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita 
AudreyFreak said:
because we live in a death culture. if it's inconvenient- do away with it. we live in a selfish society where what we want is zaidi important than doing what is right. even though there are plenty of options for pregnant women, some people just have a dislike au even hatred of the unborn and think this is a better au easier way, when it is not.
select as best answer
posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita 
*
To say that women who choose to have an abortion have a "dislike au hatred of the unborn" is completely unfair. Many find it an extremely difficult decision and one that they may continue to think about long into the future. Disrespectful to these women and their very real struggles to equate their choice with 'hating the unborn.'.
ThePrincesTale posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
*
It's not always selfish though; what if the abortion is happening because the mother knows that the baby will be born with a deformity au some other major heath problem. In which case she's thinking of how hard it would be for the child and she doesn't want him/her to suffer. How about a very poor woman not wanting her child to grow up in poverty? Speaking of selfish; is it not selfish to think only of the unborn baby and not (say) a rape victim au a woman who could die during child birth? No hate intended towards you, just chakula for thought.
zanhar1 posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
zanhar1 said:
First coming into this swali I thought wewe meant in general; in which case some babies are simply born into low income families, it's not their fault it just happens. Some children are genetically predisposed. It's unfair, yes, but sometimes there simply isn't anything we can do about it.

After kusoma your specifications (this seems to be a pro-choice/pro-life question), I can come up with a few reasons why babies 'are not considered equal'.

For one thing is it really a matter of equality? Can a non-cognitive, emotion-lacking fetus (and up to a certain time period it isn't even called a fetus) really understand equality and what's happening to it, much less care? I've taken a lifespan class; up to a certain point the unborn baby is just a mass of cells really...it isn't even human. It isn't even until the fetal stage that the fetus' brain becomes sophisticated, it isn't until this stage that the fetus actually becomes recognizable as a baby. Before the fetal stage wewe have the germinal stage which is the first (and the shortest) phase. This stage takes place during the first 2 weeks of pregnancy...at this point it really is just a zygote and an egg, and eventually the beginnings of an umbilical cord and the placenta. From 2 to 8 weeks is the embryonic stage; yes the major organs start to form hear and the basic scaffolding of the anatomy form. But at this point it still can't really even be recognized as a human much less have the cognitive functioning of a baby. The baby then enters the fetal stage after 8 weeks. This is when the baby is a baby so to speak. (Information pulled from my textbook).

Aside from that there are other factors; can the mother financially support the baby? Isn't it worse to bring a baby into a world where it's malnourished and neglected due in part to a lack of money?

Is the woman a victim of rape? Why should a woman who didn't even want sexual contact have to go through something as stressful as childbirth and carrying the baby? She's already had it bad when she got raped. It's far crueler to make a person who is fully cognitively aware go through something like that, than to 'kill' an unborn baby; it really can't feel nor comprehend.

That said, say the mother of a rape victim was forced to give birth and the baby resembles her attacker. It isn't far fetched to say that there will be resentment au at least tension between this mother and baby.

If the mother simply didn't want the child and is forced to give birth anyways abuse and neglect are far zaidi likely and probably worse than the abortion itself.

And what about disease? Say the child is born with some medical ailment (mental au physical). Maybe the kid has autism. Maybe the child was 'born without a face' like Juliana Wetmore. Say the mother knows this before-hand. No matter what, the path will be very rough. The mother may believe that it is merciful to have the abortion rather than make the baby suffer through it.

Along the sam
select as best answer
posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita 
*
e lines of the rape case; what if the mother finds out she could die giving birth? If she didn't realize that before hand is it okay to force her to deliver knowing that it could [b]kill[/b] her...a living, aware, feeling, developed human being? And these are just a few reasons. Abortion doesn't [i]have[/i] to be selfish. Of course there are a handful of people who are getting them for selfish reasons, but honestly there's always that handful with everything. Sometimes it's simply in the best interest of the child.
zanhar1 posted zaidi ya mwaka mmoja uliopita
next question »