I kinda actually think the classics are given more of a pass because "they're from a different era" and I really think, different era or not, they can be fairly harmful representations of women. And just in general, like Aurora being treated like she has depth.

I think Snow, Aurora, and Jasmine are treated like they have depth personality here.

So we should then judge the Classics by our standard norms of today? When they were written in a very different context? That sounds wacky to me.

Hmm.

Belle certainly is given a pass, mostly because the whole B&TB movie is written to see her under ""the righteous lens.".

Rapunzel ( like Belle) also has this built in "I'm impervious to criticism" factor, which leads people to think she has no flaws, when she does.

Tiana is bascially a hit or a miss. If you're impressed enough by her hard work and stamina, then you like her. If you get annoyed by her pessimism and critiques of others, then you probably dislike her. But Tiana is not written to be "a saint" like Belle is.

People who love Merida give her a free pass, and blame Elinor for everything. People who found what Merida did kind of appalling, don't give Merida as much leeway.

Ariel doesn't ever get a pass about anything, nor any leeway to pursue her dream. Someone inevitably pipes up saying that Ariel should never have had the dream about being human in the first place-- and she should never have pursued it, because she should have stayed with her family forever. Ariel gets people to defend her, but that's not as much love as defense against hatred.

If "giving characters a pass" is what this is about, why do we need to continue this? Will ripping up the Classic girls for their flaws ( just as we have done for the other princesses I have named here) achieve the same kind of perverse equality?

I know that this is what happens around here, generally speaking, but this criticism tactic is losing its appeal for me.

Yes, absolutely we should judge the princesses regardless of context. Just because sexism and racism were more prevalent, or should I say, more obvious at that time doesn't make it less okay.

^Okay. Ripping another set of princesses apart? That sounds about right.

^is that what I said? if you're gonna respond sarcastically without any substance don't bother commenting at all. I said the classic princesses are often given a pass for being from a different era and I don't think that's right. Relax.

^I said that judging them ( which kind of progresses down the line to ripping things apart over flaws) didn't appeal to me. And the sarcasm I used there, was just how I expressed my lack of desire.

I don't want to participate in taking the context of the 1950s and applying today's perspective to it. To me, this discussion is circuitous, and it doesn't provide me with anymore respect for the more recent eras (Renaissance, Revival) as compared to the earliest era..

I don't want this to go any further into any kind of misunderstanding. Therefore, I am going to ask you politely if I can sit this one out.

You don't need MY permission to sit anything out, you could have done that yourself by simply not commenting. Judging does not necessarily progress to ripping things apart. Only if you have no self control.

You literally asked "So we should then judge the Classics by our standard norms of today? When they were written in a very different context? That sounds wacky to me."<---so I answered it, and then you ask if you can sit it out? Why ask if you don't want a response?

I see people compare Ariel and Merida, though Ariel tend to be loved just a little more cuz they think she learned her lesson and Merida didn't.

i mean, it's a given that people tend to be protective of their favorites - fandom can be a very personal thing - so it makes sense that this spills over into giving their faves preferential treatment etc.
also, the nostalgia filter often kicks in and softens criticism toward characters we grew up with.

Mostly the original 6, not sure as to why I've just noticed most people seem to forgive them for things they don't forgive the other 5 for.

For example they forgive Belle for being "too perfect," but not Rapunzel.
Belle for being "righteous, judgemental and uppity" but not Tiana.
Ariel for being dangerous, inconsiderate and rebellious, but not Merida.
Jasmine for being witty, sassy and mysterious, but not Pocahontas.
Snow White for being a goody-two-shoes, but not Rapunzel and Anna.
And even though Mulan isn't part of the original 6, but Mulan for being lazy, introverted, and tomboyish, but not Merida.

I agree with princesslullaby. We should judge the classics by today's norms because they are still prevalent in today's popular culture. They are not isolated in the time period they were created. They have real and far reaching effects today. Also, I generally ascribe to the "Death of the Author" theory when it comes to criticism.

@wavesurf "People who love Merida give her a free pass, and blame Elinor for everything. " Um, I love Merida, and this is not true for me. What Merida did was completely shitty, and Elinor doesn't shoulder all of the blame (although I think she shoulders some of it). Some people definitely give Ariel a pass for certain traits, while denouncing Merida for those same traits. Ariel is generally well-liked on this club, although I don't deny she gets a ton of criticism. But lots of users have her as their favorite princess, moreso than any other DP.

I agree with UnholyNoise. Fandom can be really personal. People tend to defend their favorites no matter what and prone to be biased toward their personal faves. But then, not everyone is like that. There are people who can be completely fair and unbiased toward the princesses. By the way, why Belle always be the one to be compared with other princesses ? Somehow i get the urge to say "Leave her alone."

Cinico- actually, I think it's the reverse except for Merida. Snow IS hated for being a naive, "selfish" goody goody who needs rescued, but Rapunzel is excused. Belle is pretty loved but the instances she does get criticism, it's for being snobby and always having to be justified- while Rapunzel and often Tiana (ALWAYS Tia elsewhere) are excused. And so on.

Anyway, I don't know how us thinking the Classics have depth is giving them a pass to do anything, but they're generally pretty widely considered to all be flat characters (although Cinderella has definitely gotten more fans over the years). I can tell you from personal experience as someone who studies both Disney movies and personality theory too much that no amount of analyzing or pointing to character traits will convince those who simply don't see them as well rounded characters that they have personalities. I don't think, for example, Snow is a very deep character, but I think many fans confuse depth with likability. I don't think Elsa is deep at all but clearly people like her. Snow doesn't need to have a tragic back story or turn into Walter White to be likable. None of the DPs need to be complex.

But Aurora? I just analyze what I see. And I do see a dreamy, philosophical, heart-on-her-sleeve INFP who is growing up. Whether or not others see that as deep is up is subjective. 😊 but nobody can say I'm just being nostalgic; Jasmine was my favorite as a kid.

I think Rapunzel is treated like she's above all criticism here.